Please retweet: 9/19 Recap: Managing the Backlog During Initial Development in B2B ISVs w/@JohnPeltier http://bit.ly/ow3uYr #prodmgmttalk @prodmgmttalk
At our most recent, Sept 19, 2011 Global Product Management Talk on Twitter, John Peltier @johnpeltier led us in a discussion of Managing the Backlog during initial product development in business to business independent software vendors. Following is an edited recap of the tweets. Host Cindy F. Solomon @cindyfsolomon was joined by Roger Cauvin @rcauvin as co-host. Use this as a jumping off point to blog your insights and responses.
Q1 Is it easier to involve customers during construction of custom software products than it is for B2B or Enterprise products?
Q2 Which role is most suited to getting customer input on a sprint-by-sprint basis: product owner, user experience, or product manager?
Q3 What are the benefits and risks of letting customers see unfinished work vs. using vaporware mock-up to gather current-state feedback?
- Podcast: http://bit.ly/oCT0LD
Listen to internet radio with ProdMgmttalk on Blog Talk Radio
- Transcript: http://slidesha.re/oMbcIE
- Resources: http://bit.ly/pdNdCF
John says, "I find Roger’s blog to be one of the best-written on the topic of product management, with particular emphasis on agile approaches to the subject, and I look forward to his participation in the talk. Cindy and I have spoken about focusing the topic of our talk around backlog management during development of the initial release of a product, as that is an area I’ve uncovered (and..caused!) some controversy.."
SUGGESTED PRE-TALK READING:
- Roger Cauvin summary article about this topic: http://bit.ly/qkEHIE
- John Peltier’s perspective on this topic http://bit.ly/nsQTKG
- Rich Mironov challenges of product managers serving as product owners in agile environment http://slidesha.re/pceXQQ
- John Peltier relationship between #prodmgmt and product owner in #scrum http://bit.ly/oSQDMC
MENTIONED DURING TALK:
- ISV - independent software vendors
- Kano model http://bit.ly/qZDmtq
- IDEO asked pilots to test a mock-up with Post-it Note controls http://bit.ly/p9PpTd
- ProductCamp organizers group on LinkedIn: http://ow.ly/6yWiI
BLOG POSTINGS AFTER TALK
- Geoff Anderson Product Owner vs. Product Manager http://bit.ly/q4ih6L
- Saeed Khan That Product Owner (er…Backlog Manager) debate again…On Product Management http://bit.ly/ralQcU
INTRO
- rcauvin In the old days, #agile dev teams were co-located w/ customers & could more easily manage the product backlog.
- johnpeltier The challenge: Product managers must represent a market segment, not just a single customer. How to do while in the dev room?
- rcauvin Now we have B2B and B2C software product teams doing #agile & experiencing challenges representing the customer effectively.
- johnpeltier If the product management and product owner roles are split, will the same product quality result?
- rcauvin And if the #prodmgmt & product owner roles are NOT split, will product quality suffer?
- gander2112 I think that it might be part of the level of skills in the product owner role, at my company, the PO is a very junior role. (Of course I am both PO and PM), so I get the full picture. I mean, so junior that they pretty much have to ask permission to go to the loo
- johnpeltier Geoffrey, I am both also - One element is if the PO has exposure to customer research...
- saeedwkhan Need to distinguish between Prod. Mgr (role),Prod Owner (role) & #prodmgmt function & goals. Then it's not an issue. :-)
- gander2112 @saeedwkhan Agreed, but often not done.
- jbrett Is it even practical for a PO to effectively serve the needs of the team AND the market on their own?
- gander2112 Yes, if they have enuf skills
- liz_blink Not sure. I do both and isn't easy!
- johnpeltier @liz_blink I didn't say it was easy! I've done both at once. The challenge is keeping a PM / PO on one product.
- jbrett @gander2112 I'm not sure its a question of skills as much as one of capacity. Thoughts?
- saeedwkhan @jbrett is correct.... but it's a question of skills, capacity & overall scalability. That's why roles need to be separate.
- gander2112 Actually, If the product owner role is pigeonholed into a dev interface role only, they will never learn mkt and other skills. I believe that the PO needs to be at some level of participation in the outbound market research
- johnpeltier Isn't backlog management intended to meet market needs? If so, that person must get great deal of user input
- jbrett @saeedwkhan We've done it both ways at my company. Separating roles seems to be yielding dividends.
- saeedwkhan PO should be part of the #prodmgmt team, but with a focus on working with Eng. They don't need to live there though. I call it friends with benefits, and not marriage. :-) daily interaction yes. hourly interaction. Not a requirement.
- jbrett @saeedwkhan #prodmgmttalk but isn't that the function of the PO? To sit with the team as a customer proxy?
- gander2112 There has to be more than just drive by pushing of priorities and requirements from PM to PO. Can be separate, but close
- gander2112 Don't get me wrong, I would love to get away from the Backlog, but it is hard to get the right balance. And right person too… I just fear that the temptation to take @saeedwkhan's input from daily to once per sprint would be too great.
- saeedwkhan @gander2112 Hi, I didn't say once per sprint. Where did you see that? :-)
- gander2112 @saeedwkhan YOu didn't, but once a day, to, "I'm busy, bug me in three weeks" is a slippery slope, and one that is tempting
- johnpeltier @gander2112 @saeedwkhan Team / PO will move on if PM doesn't reply fast enough.
- gander2112 A1: Naturally. You are building it for one customer, so that makes it easier to involve them deeply
- johnpeltier @saeedwkhan Well, that *sounds* easy!
- Ycnt_ibdonlyjen A1: am curious... how many people are building custom sftw for one client instead of mkt?
- johnpeltier @saeedwkhan @jbrett If PM is out visiting clients / being in the market, PM on multiple products, r they available enough?
- gander2112 FOr me balancing different customers in different segments for input is hard.
- johnpeltier Clarification: "available enough?" in prior Tweet = "available enough to the Product Owner"?
- liz_blink @gander2112 PO needs to be participate in the outbound mrkt research #prodmgmttalk agreed otherwise it just propagates inside out approach.
- liz_blink @johnpeltier @jbrett If PM is out visiting clients market, r they available enough? #prodmgmttalk good Q. What is enough? To get job done?
- gander2112 @liz_blink I like to call that "Breathing our own exhaust"
- saeedwkhan @gander2112 If a PO goes the once per sprint route, they are not doing their job. Communication shd be as needed.
- liz_blink Or is the team lacking some proactiveness to call out to you?
- gander2112 @saeedwkhan Not the PO, but the PM becoming less accessible. I have plenty on my plate to keep me away from the daily PO mtg
- saeedwkhan @gander2112 In every PM job I've had, the MINIMUM comm interval was weekly. With email/phone etc, it is many times/wk.
- johnpeltier @saeedwkhan @gander2112 Can't imagine 1 per week being adequate in any context
- liz_blink @saeedwkhan must be mine that need a lot of love! Or the combo of no PO that increases the need.
- rcauvin Key related question here is the granularity of the backlog. Does it truly contain stories, or are tasks?
- johnpeltier A2: Strong UX team member can help bridge the gap, IMO.
- ProdMgmtTalk @rcauvin describing the "granularity" of the backlog as a distinction for how much communication is required
- saeedwkhan @rcauvin Good point. Stories take time to implement. This is different than tasks.
- ErikaLAndersen Tasks = features? Stories = ??? Stories = how user interacts with products, reducing amount PM must do? Still trying to figure this out. Stories come with personas. Developers understand stories, goals, make better decisions
- rcauvin User story stands for a relatively end-to-end user interaction that achieves a goal. Nice when dev team can run with these
- johnpeltier Design personas help
- ErikaLAndersen If developers understand stories, don't need as much input from PM (or is it PO?)
- jbrett @johnpeltier @gander2112 @saeedwkhan If the PM is also a customer seems like a pretty scary idea. (moving on without response)
- rcauvin @ErikaLAndersen If the backlog contains user stories instead of tasks, it is generally easier to manage.
- saeedwkhan @liz_blink One of my team is in India. They're not crying and they do great work.
- Brioneja @ProdMgmtTalk I would think that the right role depends on the type of project and the level of uncertainty
- johnpeltier If the stories are well written and capture intent fully, PO job is easier @jbrett @ErikaLAndersen
- Brioneja @ProdMgmtTalk I am a big proponent of quickly creating prototypes. But prototypes can also be non functional screens
- ProdMgmtTalk @johnpeltier A3: unfinish is front end prototype – mockup to me is clickable wireframes / Flash / static HTML
- Brioneja @ProdMgmtTalk IDEO has a wonderful example of VOC where they gathered info on an airplane cockpit design using Post-It Notes
- ProdMgmtTalk Correction: "Unfinished work" is actual product in progress vs. vaporware has not been developed on back-end
- rcauvin A3: I've found clickable wireframes can be very helpful, but they require careful expectation setting.
- ErikaLAndersen A3: If lots of work already completed, more psych/financially difficult to make changes based on cust feedback
- saeedwkhan Vaporware is product that is claimed to exist that doesn't really exist. i.e. it's a false statement.
- johnpeltier @saeedwkhan Perhaps "vaporware" wasn't the right word for the question :)
- ProdMgmtTalk @rcauvin says to tie all major user stories into 1 end-end epic & demo epic which is incrementally fleshed out
- Brioneja @saeedwkhan I think there is another difference. Vaporware is not even an ongoing project.
- ErikaLAndersen Should we use "prototype" instead? RT@saeedwkhan: Vaporware is product that is claimed to exist that doesnt really
- saeedwkhan @Brioneja True. It's a question of intent IMHO. If the intent is to deceive, it's definitely vaporware.
- johnpeltier @ErikaLAndersen @saeedwkhan Yes, that's a better word. People, focus! Get over that word! :)
- saeedwkhan @liz_blink Mature teams know how to communicate effectively. Immature ones need constant feeding. :-)
- liz_blink Agree.@Brioneja: @ProdMgmtTalk I would think that the right role depends on the type of project and the level of uncertainty
- Brioneja @ProdMgmtTalk One approach is to talk to the customer's customers and to other suppliers to the industry
- ErikaLAndersen A5: Are customers commenting/designing specific elements, or whether product meets goals/ needs? Not new question; just a clarification
- johnpeltier @ErikaLAndersen They'd comment on both, I'm assuming, but what's important is whether root problems are being addressed
- johnpeltier @liz_blink @Brioneja @ProdMgmtTalk "Level of uncertainty" is an important element.
- Brioneja @ProdMgmtTalk The more you move downstream on the value chain, the more "stable" the signal/ noise ratio
- rcauvin A4: to address the challenges of ambiguous customer input, ask "why" & "what problem does it solve".
- Brioneja @johnpeltier @liz_blink @ProdMgmtTalk I am a proponent of classifying projects by level of uncertainty. Need dif mgmt approach
- saeedwkhan A4 That's why #prodmgmt is tough. Need 2 B a good info aggregator & make decisions based on clear goals for product/bizness
- rcauvin A4: Focus customer input on the problems they face; group problems & customers into segments. Choose your problem and customer segments on which to focus. Grouping ultimately coalesces around a chosen position
- johnpeltier @rcauvin For rev1 of a product, aim at a small number of segments
- Brioneja @rcauvin The Kano model is a somewhat rigorous way to do that http://bit.ly/qZDmtq
- saeedwkhan @rcauvin "Nail it, then Scale it" is my motto on this topic. start small & focused, get it right, then expand
- ProdMgmtTalk @cindyfsolomon asked @rcauvin about what tool he used to identify grouping of data - he created visual diagram of grouping
- Artifacture Communication & facilitation are key. Try to steer strategic at begin of process edging toward details at end
- johnpeltier Root cause analysis is the answer to the old Bud Dry ad: "Why ask why?"
- johnpeltier RT @ProdMgmtTalk: @rcauvin says always focus on 1 segment: intersection of people w/ problems youre addressing= main segment...
Thank you John Peltier @johnpeltier for speaking and Roger Cauvin @rcauvin for co-hosting today! Everyone's participation appreciated!
- Join us next week: Sept 26: Everything you need to know about Web Privacy, but were afraid to ask w/ @ShaunDakin
Global Product Management TalkTM is a weekly mini-product camp Socratic discussion (on Twitter) of pre-posted questions (on Facebook) with live audio of thought leader and co-hosts commenting (on Blogtalkradio).
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